Guide Dogs for the Blind Alumni Speaker Series, June 2022
Summer Fun

Deb: So there we go. Okay. So whenever you guys are ready. You can start.

Kelly:  Are you ready, Cheri?

Cheri:  I'm ready. Let's do this.

Kelly:  Ready Pete and Lui? And whoever joins, they'll join along the way, I suppose. Is that cool?

Lui:  Yeah. Hi. It's Lui. I'm ready.

Kelly:  Okay, terrific. So I will go ahead, and when you open it up, I will introduce Cheri and Martinez. And then Cheri, take it away, okay?

Cheri:  Okay. You got it.

Kelly:  All right, I'm ready whenever you are, Deb.

Deb:  Yeah. We're going.

Kelly:  Hi there. How is everybody? Thank you very much for joining the Alumni Speaker Series of June. And it's been a while since our last Speaker Series, but this Speaker Series is focused on how to have fun and get entertained and travel and so on during the summer and advocate for yourself for all of those things. 

So I have a panel of experts, and our host today will be Cheri Owen, and she is from -- she's an alumni and lives in Santa Barbara. And she and her guide Martinez will be hosting this Speaker Series beginning now. Cheri, take it away.

Cheri:  Thank you so much, Kelly. Hello everybody. I'm so excited for all of you to be here with us today. And we have this great Speaker Series set up for you about advocacy and empowerment. And we all hope this is going to be informational for you and fun at the same time. I also want to sort of preface it with we'll have our questions and answers, and then we're going to give you some time, obviously, to ask us questions, based upon the information you've received. 

So I'm going to start with Pete. Okay. So Pete, let's start with the Amtrak question. Is Amtrak required to allow guide dogs on board?

Pete:  Hi everyone. This is Pete Berg. And the short answer to that question is yes. Amtrak is actually covered by the ADA, by the Americans with Disabilities Act, even though it is a federally operated train system. So we as guide dog users do have the right to be accompanied by our guide dogs on the train and anywhere on the train where passengers are allowed to go. 

And certain cars on trains are accessible cars, and you can -- we'll touch on this another question -- but you can request to be seated in the seat that has additional space that would typically be used by someone with a wheelchair or other mobility device. You can request to have that location, so you have enough space for you and your guide dog.

Cheri:  Yeah. Well, that that takes me, since you already posed that, Pete, so you said that like accessible in a seat, with a wheelchair. So let's talk maybe a little about you know when you're at like sporting events or concerts or any space where there's -- you often have, even at movies you have where you have a wheelchair seat, and then you have somebody that -- like a companion seat. Are we able to take that space with our guide dogs?

Pete:  Sure. The ADA refers to the spaces as accessible seating locations. So we as guide dog user -- people have the right to purchase the tickets for those accessible seating locations. And as Cheri mentioned, this would be in arenas, stadiums, theaters, any place where you have fixed seating, so where seating's attached to the ground. Those tickets for those seats can be sold to obviously people who use mobility devices, wheelchairs, but it's also for anyone that requires the use of the features of that space.

So what that means is we as guide dog users may require this the features of that space. It's a larger space for our dogs to go. Accessible seating locations are located on an accessible route. That means there's no stairs getting to and from those spaces. They're required to be connected to an accessible route. 

So if you're going to a ballgame, you're going to a concert, you're going to the theater event, if you're purchasing tickets online, typically there'll be a checkbox that asks you are you purchasing these tickets for someone that needs the space. Or if you purchase them by telephone, you need to indicate I have a guide dog. I need the accessible seating location because I need the additional space for me and my guide dog. And as Cheri mentioned, you can purchase companion seats, so you can sit next to your friends and family.

Cheri: So let's say if I get there, like let's say I purchase this ticket and I get there, and -- just say I'm going to an orchestra event. And I get there, and all of the wheelchair seats are taken. And are they required then to put me in some kind of accessible seating?

Pete: Well, typically if you're purchasing a ticket, oftentimes you're purchasing a ticket for a specific seat. Now, we as guide dog users, like anyone else, can purchase tickets on the secondary market. And if we do that, if we buy tickets on StubHub or any of those other resale locations, we can show up at the stadium. We're showing up at our own risk, but we can show up at the stadium and say, "Hey, I purchased this ticket for a regular seat, but I need an accessible seating location. Do you have any available?" And if they have accessible spaces available, they need to seat you in that location. They don't have to upgrade you to a skybox or to better seating. If it's available, they can charge you for it. But if there's an accessible location available, they need to work with you and make that available.  
And then one other quick thing, Cheri. If you purchase tickets for an accessible seating location and then you decide that you can't go or something comes up, you can sell that ticket, just like anyone else can sell tickets. So you're not -- just because you purchased it, you can sell it to someone that doesn't need the accessible features of that location. So you're not stuck with the ticket. If the ball club, if the arena, or whoever allows tickets to be resold, you can resell your ticket.

Cheri:  Oh. that's really great to know. Thank you so much. I'm going to go on to Lui for the next question here. Lui, so cruises are back right?

Lui:  Yay.

Cheri:  I know. We're post-COVID. Cruises are back. I know you're a sailor. You love your boat. So this question is a great one for you. So I know there's all these cruise boats going to Alaska. And I'm also going to ask Deanna her personal experience about going on a cruise with her guide dog. But I wanted -- you're our Canadian representative here, and I wanted to know a little bit about operators of these cruises. You have all different sorts. You have Princess. You have Royal Caribbean. You have all these different kinds of cruises and boat tours. Are they required to allow us with our guide dogs?

Lui:  Yes. The answer is yes, absolutely. It's a little bit confusing because there are no cruise ships that start their journey from Canada and end in Canada. So if you catch -- if you're going on an Alaskan cruise, the ship will stop in Vancouver, and people will embark, and then it'll head off into Alaska or wherever. 

The regulator in Canada seems to be ambivalent about whose rules would apply to a journey, be it a cruise ship or a bus or a flight, that crosses an international border. My position as a regulatory wonk has been if I'm buying a ticket in Canada that leaves from a Canadian port, then the Canadian regulations should apply. But the regulator is saying, no we can't do that. The origin, the initial origin of the journey is what regulations apply.

So in this case a ship leaving from California going to Vancouver going to Alaska and back again, the regulator would say no, the US rules require -- they apply. But yeah, you can bring your guide dog and, like most things, the more notice and the more research you do in advance, the more fun your journey will be. I would never suggest to anyone just show up at the dock and buy a ticket. I don't know if you can do that in Vancouver or Halifax. But I would never suggest that because you might be successful and you probably will be, but who needs that level of anxiety added to the journey?

Cheri:  Correct. Correct. I wanted to see as -- I wanted to ask Deanna because Deanna actually -- I believe she's on.

Deanna:  I'm here.

Cheri:  Oh great. I want you to tell us a little bit about your fantastic experience you had. How many guide dogs went on a cruise together? You all were on the cruise, how many?

Deanna:  Okay, so I went on my very first cruise in May of 2019. And our group was called All Paws on Deck, and we had a five-day cruise to the Bahamas. And we had 50 people in our group and 29 guide dogs, and they came from five different guide schools too.

Kelly:  Amazing.

Cheri: Wow. Wow. And what was the setup as far as like -- I mean I'm very curious. What was the setup as far as the relief areas? How did that work? Did you contact them way ahead? I mean obviously it was a tour of many, but what were the relief areas like? Were they on a certain deck? Or what how did that work?

Deanna:  Well, we called it the poop deck. [Laughter]. So we worked with a travel agent, so she took care of all the logistics, but we did have to fill out paperwork in advance to make sure that the dogs would be allowed in the Bahamas. And as far as, and I think if you're going on a cruise individually, I think you can kind of request what you're looking for as far as like relieving surfaces. They had raised boxes with different materials. Some had fake grass. Some had like wood chips. Others had like a kind of like a dog litter.

Cheri:  You had the variety pack.

Deanna:  Yes, and some of the dogs held out for a long time and just ended up going on the deck, which I don't recommend because I don't think it made Carnival very happy.  But yeah, so you can request different materials. And just if you want to practice ahead of time with trying to get your dog relieve in small areas, just use like flower beds, like in a downtown area or something like that. That way they get kind of used to going in tight areas before the cruise.

Cheri:  That's a great idea. That's a really great idea. Yeah. Because it's probably like four by four I would imagine.

Deanna:  Yeah, if it's even that big.

Cheri:  Okay. Well, that's fantastic. So I'm going to come back to you for another question.

Deanna:  Can I add one more thing real quick?

Cheri:  Yes. Yes.

Deanna:  Okay. I just want to add, too, when you're going on a vacation to an area you've not been to before it's always a good thing to look up vet clinics in the area you'll be traveling to because I encountered an issue right before my cruise. My guide dog Mambo got a UTI, and so I was scrambling at the last minute as I was getting ready to board the ship to try and find vet help to see if I could get him on an antibiotic or anything. But luckily, he did not need any antibiotics. It kind of got better on its own after a few days. But the perfect thing was that he learned how to relieve in the boxes very quickly. I had no issues with him whatsoever.

Cheri:  But that's great, and that's just a fantastic point.

Deb:  And Cheri, Rabih has joined you, just so you know. You have another panel person.

Cheri:  Oh great. His question is next. That's fantastic. So yes, being able to get a vet is super important. And Deanna, thank you for making that point because it's -- it definitely should be on our checklist. And since Rabih is here -- I'm so excited, Rabih -- I have a question for you, for the panel.

Rabih:  Go for it.

Cheri:  Okay. I'm going to give you the county fair one because I find this very, very interesting. Can a county fair exclude a guide dog user from certain areas that have animals and other livestock?

Rabih:  Well before I answer that I want to say sorry. I'm running a little late from another -- coming from another panel here. 

Cheri:  Oh, it's okay.  
Rabih:  And as the only staff member on this panel, it's great to be with all of you, and it's nice to hear the word advocacy more and more among the grads and just in general around GDB.

To answer your question, I think, like everybody else, whenever we go into any public area, we should go in with the assumption that it is accessible. That's a given. Now, the devil is always in the details, as everybody had said before me, all the little things that you have to take care of, you should just be aware of. 

In fairs, county fairs or any fairs, service dogs are certainly allowed. They're allowed in the livestock areas. They're allowed in the dining facilities. Now as you get into the rides, things become a little bit more dicey. And a lot of it is logical. You don't want the dog to get hurt or frightened. That doesn't help anybody, including us or the dog or the guests around us.

So, probably the bigger the fair is, the more awareness and support you're going to get. But our judgment call is critical in especially the smaller fairs where you may not have staff who have part about especially the safety concerns for the dog and certain rights or certain situations like that. Just, we need to be proactive and advocate for ourselves and for the safety of those around us, including our dog and other guests and family members. But the short answer to your question is service dogs are certainly allowed in those areas, because it is a public area.

Cheri:  Right and like you often say, Rabih, that each of us with our guide dog is a walking billboard of information and knowledge and empowerment.

Rabih:  Amen. Absolutely. Yeah.

Cheri:  It's just seeing us creates awareness, and we can advocate ourselves.

Rabih:  And I'm going to take that a little further, Cheri, here just to dispel -- I was on a recent -- right before this one, we were talking about disability justice versus disability rights. And those are interesting terms. We don't want to go in saying these are my rights and come in already defensive and ready for a fight. No. We should go in with the understanding that there is equity here. These are my disability justice. This is not my right. And approach it from that angle and seek the understanding of everybody around you by your own belief in that concept as well.

Cheri:  That's wonderful. That's really a beautiful way to differentiate the two issues. Deanna, are you there?

Deb:  Actually, I muted her again, so if you would like Deanna back again...

Cheri:  I need Deanna back because I've got to ask her about the zoo.

Deb:  I'm bringing Deanna back. I failed, man.

[Laughter]

Deanna:  That's okay, Deb.

Deb:  I'm fired. I'll get fired. 

Deanna:  Hi. It's Deanna again.

Cheri:  Hey. Okay. So tell me about your San Francisco zoo experience with Mambo.

Deanna:  So I do like going to the zoo. I can't necessarily see the animals, but I can enjoy the beauty of the nature. And just learning about the different animals is exciting and very educational. So I have been to a few different zoos with Mambo. He's a very good zoo dog. He's not easily distracted, and nothing really seems to faze him. 

But there are certain exhibits that you can't visit. And each zoo has their own different policies. So I recommend just looking ahead of time online or giving them a call. And so the different enclosure that might not be available are like areas where the animals can free roam or a free flight aviary, like a petting zoo part. And then in Cincinnati zoo, we now have a kangaroo exhibit. So the kangaroos are actually running around loose in there. So I'm not allowed to take Mambo in there. 

But the nice things is some zoos, not San Francisco, but Cincinnati, they will actually, if we call guest services, they will have someone come down and babysit your dog while you go into the exhibit with whoever you're with or sighted guide with someone else or just with your cane. So that is a nice service because that way I can still see what I want to see even though he's not allowed in that area. 

And then some areas that you kind of want to take caution are when there's animals that are naturally prey or predators to our dogs. And then some other restricted areas could be animal shows and experiences, where they have like birds flying around freely or they have a cheetah exhibit, like a cheetah run kind of thing at Cincinnati.

Cheri:  We don't [crosstalk 00:20:43].

Deanna:  Speaking of cheetahs, well, it was actually a snow leopard in San Francisco that reacted to Mambo. He or she was not very happy, was walking by the glass, saw Mambo, kind of did a double take, and then a little bit later was standing on its hind legs and like pawing at the glass. So I'm like I think we're going to move away from this area.

Cheri:  Yeah, we need to leave.

Rabih:  Thank God for the glass. Yeah.

Deanna:  Yeah. You need to know your dog,  and you often need to you know watch the symptoms of the animals just to make sure that nobody's overly stressed out.

Rabih:  Cheri, let me add one other thing to this. That's great a great example that we just heard actually. But one of the things we should keep in mind is if we live in an area with facilities like this zoo or a park of some sort or the county fair, for that matter, that we like to go to with our families and friends, get involved with that organization this year for summer of 2023. Let them know that you're there and you'd like to be involved in supporting them to making that fair or that zoo or aquarium or whatever accessible. They welcome that support from the community. It's good outreach for them. It makes a good story for them publicly. And you can ensure that your next visit will be more successful.

Cheri:  Oh, that's a great point, yeah, because then it's inclusive.

Rabih:  Exactly.

Cheri:  Right, Right. That's a great point.

Rabih:  We must remember. We have a lot to offer our community. There probably are many more people who are blind or disabled, maybe even guide dog users or service dog users, who live in the community or who would like to attend these activities but don't know what to do or don't have the wherewithal to help make it accessible. You guys listening to this session today probably have a lot more that you can offer your community than you think, so reach out.

Cheri:  Right. No, absolutely. And get involved and be informational. 

Deanna:  Advocate for yourself.

Cheri:  Advocate for yourself. And that takes me actually to Pete. Rabih, once you just mentioned that, as far as being able to go and be inclusive and say hey how can I help you with accessibility.

Pete, what about a guide dog? Are we able to take our guide dogs to -- this is very curious because there's differing views actually here in Santa Barbara, although we're allowed. But can you take a guide dog, can you take your guide dog to a hotel pool or a public beach that doesn't allow dogs? Because there are some beaches that allow dogs, but others don't. And this might be a way, too, for people to get involved as far as like accessibility. And if they want to go to the public beach often, they can contact the county and get involved that way. But Pete, I'm going to turn it over to you. What about that question?

Pete:  The short answer is yes, to an extent. Just to add to what Rabih and you and Deanna have been talking about. When we talk about advocacy, I think one of the most important things about advocacy is being educated and educating yourself and knowing -- what Rabih talked about -- knowing what your rights are and knowing what the law requires, whether that's the ADA or whether it's a local law, it's a human rights ordinance, it's a civil rights ordinance in your state, your county. Knowing what the law requires and knowing exactly what your rights are, and then you can always advocate for more but knowing that distinction. 

Because as an advocate the most important thing about being an advocate is being credible. And if you tell a business, if you tell a local government, if you tell someone the law requires it and it's not factual you, you lose your credibility as an advocate. So knowing exactly -- and there are resources out there to educate yourself. So don't think that you have to know everything. There are places to reach out. 

So the question is swimming pools. Absolutely a person with a service animal, a person with a guide dog has the right to take their guide dog to the pool. There can be limitations. The Department of Justice has said that as far as taking your guide dog -- and we've had questions in my previous job about people wanting to take their service animal or guide dog into the pool. And if there are county health ordinances that prohibit that, then the hotel or the local municipal swimming pool would not have to allow you to bring your dog into the water. But you do have the right to bring the dog to the pool deck. And then if you're going to go in the pool have it under control, tie it down, attached to it to a chair or a table something where it's under control and where you can check on the animal. But educate yourself.

As far as beaches, again, the requirement for service animals, which would include guide dogs under the ADA, is that covered businesses and state and local governments must modify their policies, practices, and procedures and allow a person with a disability to be accompanied by their service animal wherever the general public is allowed to go. And that is very expansive. There are very limited areas covered by the ADA where a business, a healthcare provider could actually exclude a guide dog. So you do have the right to take the dog on the beach. Now you're responsible for the supervision, having your animal under control at all times. You're responsible in relieving the animal and caring for the animal. That's all your responsibility, but yes, you actually have the right to do so.

Claire:  Hey Pete. This is Claire. Can I sneak in there with an addition?

Pete: Yes.

Cheri:  Hi, Claire.

Claire:  Hi. Hi everybody. This is Claire. Pete covered it so well. Another thing to remember  -- and everything Pete said totally correct. We have the right to bring our dogs to public pools and beaches. But it is our responsibility to keep our dogs clean and cleanly. If you, say, you were on the beach and your dog went rolling in the water and was suddenly covered in sand and then you said hey, I want to go to that beautiful restaurant right there on the beach, then you're going to be in trouble, because restaurants or public businesses, et cetera, et cetera, have the right to deny you access if your service animal isn't clean, is unruly, those kinds of things. So you just want to take those things into account that, yeah, even though you can bring your dog with you to certain places, if you're going to go somewhere else, your dog does need to comply with all of the regulations of the ADA that require things like being under the control of their handler, being clean, being responsible, those kinds of things.

Cheri:  Yeah. I think that goes back to, Rabih, what you were also saying about this is disability justice. It's like what's equitable. And so I think that would be, in terms of okay, if your dog just played in the sand and is super dirty, and it's actually not equitable to expect that restaurant to seat you inside in that moment, so --

Rabih:  - Let me just add this, Cheri.

Cheri:  Please. 

Rabih:  The rights we're talking about are not for the dogs. They're for us, for the handler. 

Cheri:  Correct.

Rabih:  So when we get the right to go to a beach, that dog is a working dog. He has to be a working dog on that beach. He's not a pet. Don't let him loose to play and roll in the sand and go shake himself next to somebody and cover them. That's not a working dog anymore. So we can go down that rabbit hole and split hair, as they do in courts all the time, but it comes down to common sense as well and just remember that. Protect your rights as a handler and keep that in mind. It's just more about being a -- you don't want somebody's dog to come and shake themselves on you when you're asleep, for God sakes, on the towel.

Cheri:  No. No.

Rabih:  So therefore, you don't want anybody else experiencing that caused by your dog. And dogs are dogs, so we 've got to, again, to go back to what Claire said and Lui, control your dog.

Cheri:  Yeah. Thank you.

Deb:  Are you guys going to take any audience comments or wait to the end because occasionally we --

Cheri:  -- Yeah. Well, we were going to wait, maybe like twenty 'til.

Deb:  Okay. Whenever you want, I just wanted to let you know that they want to talk.

[Laughter]

Cheri:  Okay, so let me go to Lui.

Deb:  I'm their advocate, right? 

Cheri:  Yes, let me do one more question for Lui and Claire, and then we'll open it up because I know -- I know there's -- and I also want to add before we open it up that Pete and Claire and Lui, they put together this great resource list. And it will be posted with the recording on the website. So there will be an informational list for all the participants to go and look at. So that's really appreciated. 

But Lui, let me ask you, and we'll do maybe two more questions and then open it up. So we talked a little bit about cruise ships and water and all those great things. What protections do the guide dog handlers have when they're traveling to and around Canada? I mean I know you -- I just really want to get into some Canadian stuff here. I know that you mentioned it, but where would they -- I guess but the better question is --  because that's so broad -- where would they go? If they had an issue with traveling around Canada, where would somebody go to get help?

Lui:  Well, that's -- it all depends. It all depends on what the -- who the issue is involved.  So for instance taxis. Most municipalities in Canada, taxi cabs are regulated by the municipality. Most have specific provisions that give service dog handlers the right to ride in a cab. Not all, there's some that don't permit that. 

Public transit. Pretty much every municipality in the country -- and public transit is a municipal thing here. Pretty much every public transit operator in the country will allow you to bring your dog, your service dog on the bus without question. 

Where it becomes a bit more complicated is for services that could be perceived as being federally regulated, so buses and trains, for instance. And it all depends, where the bus is going. If it's staying within a province, then if you encounter issues, obviously, the first step is to talk to the bus company and clarify with them what their policies are. 

If that fails, the next step that I would suggest to people is to go to the licensing body that regulates the bus operator. And that could be a province, or it could even be the federal government, again depending on where the bus operates. If you don't get satisfaction through this through those channels, the final stage you can complain to would be to bring a human rights complaint. And again, that goes back to is it a provincial service or is it a federal service because there are two different human rights commissions. There are two levels of human rights commissions in the country, and each of them covers very specific situations.

Cheri:  Wow. I mean that was a loaded question, Lui, and you did a great job. 

Lui:  Thank you. 

Cheri:  Just with the time we have, I really appreciate that, just really being succinct with that. Claire, one more question I'm giving to you, and then we're going to open it up because I think people are beating down our doors to ask us questions. Let's talk about can the rental car agencies or hotels charge deposits or fees for having a guide dog in the car or hotel room?

Claire:  So this is Claire. Absolutely not. So under the Americans with Disabilities Act -- and I'm sure we'll say that a million times, and I'm sure all of our guide dog handlers out there know that -- they cannot provide any or require any additional fees. They're service animals. They have the right to be with us and that includes in rental cars and in hotels. 

So if you show up at a hotel with your dog, and they say oh well, in order to spend the night here at our hotel you're going to have to pay an additional pet fee, they will often say because they think of our dogs as pets, which we all know, they're not. They cannot require that, so that is something that comes up. Be your own advocate, as Rabih keeps saying, but also if you need to take steps to report it to the proper channels, do so.

But no, rental cars can't require that. I've heard anecdotal stories of you've returned the rental car, and Tulane, my guide dog, has left a little bit of fur in the bottom of the car. They can't charge you for that that kind of thing. Now if your dog obviously did something extreme and created noticeable damage, your guide dog went out and partied the night before and came back and trashed the hotel room, that's obviously another thing. But if they just leave a little bit of fur, that's just you know common situations. But no. No additional fees can be charged just because you have your dog in a rental car or a hotel, only extreme circumstances for damage could they charge you.

Cheri:  Thank you. Thank you so much, Claire. I think we'll open it up. I have a few more questions, but I think what's important is to hear from everybody who's on the call with us. So Deb, why don't we take some questions? And we're ready for them.

Deb:  Okay, Debra.

Debra:  Hi everybody. This is Debra Zito from Philadelphia, and I have guide dog Rich. Hi everybody. It's not really a question. It's just I have a lot of knowledge about traveling with Amtrak because we use it more like a commuter train. It gets us to Philadelphia or Long Island or out into Pennsylvania. But we do frequent it, guide dog Rich and I, and he's great. He loves trains, I think in his past life he was a train conductor because he just loves the train. 

But they are wonderful. Like they were saying, they do have the accessible seating. And they would bring us to where it's roomy. I think one time someone had made somebody get up so we could sit there. And I always say, "Oh don't. He's trained to fit under the seat." And they're like, "No, no. They'll move." 

But what I wanted to say is they have a service called Red Cap service. And when you get into the main terminal, they'll tell you where it is if you ask the front desk. And either they'll direct you, or somebody will walk you there. And the Red Cap service will take your ticket, sit you down. There's benches. There's usually a closed area for people, like a waiting area. And then they'll escort you when the train pulls in. A lot of times we're on the train before everyone else.

Cheri:  Oh, that's great.

Debra:  Yes. And they'll even take your bag. If you go to the Amtrak with luggage, they'll take it and put it on their little rolling cart, and they'll say have a seat. And Rich and I usually are very early so we have time to both use the potty and all that. But it's a great service. It's the Red Cap service. And then they escort you, like they would escort other people that are in wheelchairs. And Rich is great. I'll just tell him follow, and he'll follow the guy with the red coat. And it's a great service, and Amtrack is wonderful. So I just wanted to add that if anyone needs to utilize Amtrak. Just ask for the Red Cap service. It's wonderful, and it's so nice, and they don't take tips because I always try. That's how wonderful they are. And I just wanted to add that little something.

Cheri:  Thank you so much, Deb.

Debra:  You're welcome. 

Cheri:  That's wonderful.

Pete:  Cheri, this is this is Pete. One other thing, when I take Amtrak out of Chicago Union Station, I always ask to get a head start down the platform before they start letting other passengers down just to give us some time and not be in other people's way and be able to get to the car. Just another thing that you can a request, and as it was mentioned, they are typically very accommodating. And I do take tips, by the way.

[Laughter]

Deb:  I've got one for you, Pete. Don't bet on the horses.

Cheri:  All right. Jim

Deb:  Jim Hogan?

Deb:  Well, while we wait for him, let's go with Lisa.

Lisa:  Hi. I'm in South Florida with my guide dog Ravi. I was in New York in October. We went to a concert. I got tickets online. It was at Paramount Theatre in Long Island. And I've had this with other things as well. I cannot avail myself to the accessible seating. They do that at the Broward Performing Arts. I have to wait until I get there, and then see if they have enough room in the accessible seating. It worked last time, which was good. Audio description is a whole other category. 

But the concert I went to at the Paramount Long Island, there was no way to get accessible seating. Our seat was in an aisle. I was in an aisle, and I had down my guide dog on the side There was no room for him under my feet. I tried to get accessible seating. They didn't have it. They only have three different settings for accessible seating, depending on the venue. And apparently they changed this one, and it was just it was just crazy. And somebody stepped on him and [crosstalk 00:41:08]. 

And then we move to another spot. And the spot we move to was so bad. And it was so noisy. It was next to a bar. And that was all that they -- they didn't have the situation that -- they didn't have any accommodation for me. I tried to discuss it afterwards. I wanted my money back. It was so horrible, the whole experience. And I took a plane just to get up there just for that concert that my niece took me to and took off for work. It was a big deal. And I was so disgusted, and they weren't even dealing with me. They dealt with somebody, a disabled person who got hit by the door in the bathroom from a worker or something. And they were dealing with her. And the manager, I was waiting for him longer than these other people. And the manager just left. 

And I just don't know what to do with that, like just keep letting it go. But I always think about what about the person after me. What did they do, and how do we improve the situation of there's three different accessible settings, and you don't even know which one that is when you're getting tickets? I'm just confused on how -- I tried to do all my homework, ask all the questions. There was no way I could get ahold of the theater months before -- because I got these tickets months ago. And I kept calling them and telling then I need accessible seating. Oh, don't worry. When you get here, we'll take care of it. So I didn't know if anybody had any suggestions, because I try to be proactive as much as possible, and I still would like them -- I would like to do something to make sure that other people don't have that problem at that venue well.

Cheri:  What do you guys think? Anybody have any suggestions?

Rabih:  When did this happen, Lisa?

Lisa:  In October. And I did try to call, and I got the manager's email. He never emailed me back. I tried to call. It's very hard to get ahold of the place.

Rabih:  That's definitely certain things you can do but following up this is important. And I don't want to take more time from this conversation here because we have a lot of people waiting, it sounds like. But if you want, feel free to send me an email R-D-O-W @guide dogs.com. That's R-D, as in David, O-W@guidedogs.com, and I'd happy to help you out with that. Sure.

Lisa:  Thank you. Thank you.

Deb:  All right. Jim, go ahead.

Jim:  Okay.

Rabih:  Can I before Jim -- sorry. Just to follow up on what Lisa just said, one of the things that you did right, Lisa, that's great, is you started early on with them. The smaller the venue is the more limited they're going to be with what facilities they're going to provide you with. I think that's important for anything we do, just to make sure they know that we do have this request and to keep it on their radar screen as they're selling other tickets or tickets to other people as well. And that will hold them responsible if they cannot accommodate us. You did a great with that, Lisa.

Pete:  And this is Pete. Real quick in terms of the ADA, Lisa, the Department of Justice regulations have very specific requirements for the sale of accessible seating locations. And if you require a ticket for an accessible seating location, you should be able to purchase it through the same manners, the same ways, online, by telephone, at the same time as the other seats, and you shouldn't have to wait until you show up. Now there are fewer accessible seating locations in venues than other types of seats, so it's possible that they could sell out. But you should have the opportunity to purchase them in advance, just as anyone else does.

Cheri:  Thank you. Thank you everybody. Thank you, Lisa, for bringing that issue up and what happened to you. And thank you, Rabih. Thank you, Pete, for all of the comments. Who's the next one, Deb? 

Deb:  Jim.

Jim:  Thank you. I do want to -- well, I've been traveling with service dog on a cruise line over 20 years. And I have to share this with you. It is your responsibility to find out all your port call, where you're going. Because when you travel -- in some cases my travel might be more than 30 days -- your international health certificate is only good for 30 days. So you don't want to be stuck someplace where you're not allowed to have your service dog because the international health certificate had been terminated.

Also the vet thing. When you set an appointment with your veterinarian, inform them. They will do the research for you and verify you when you bring your dog in. I always bring my dog in two days before I leave, departure. That way, I make sure I got that 30-day thing. That's what I want to share with you. 

The other thing is, when you do file complaint, like I did recently, a river cruise, it took nine months before they even decided to let my dog not to come aboard the chip. So I did follow up with the Department of Justice. I also followed up with the State of Wisconsin, also follow up with the State of California. And the reason is the ship is in Milwaukee, headquartered in California. And it is not easy to search the California website to find a proper form to fill out a complaint. So you need to be really proactive when you are not -- you're no there, go ahead and file the complaint. But like I did in California, with the [inaudible 00:46:52] out yesterday.

Cheri:  But Jim, look at all you did to advocate for yourself. I mean that's --

Jim:  - Yeah. Yeah.

Claire:  And this is Claire. I think that was a great example of there are different venues you can go through, either the state or federal level. So remember you have options and check out the research resource list that Pete helped put together because it does provide different resources. And so like you said, sometimes it's hard to find, for instance, the California website. Some of the resources we put together are people who know where those websites are, and they can point them in the right direction.

Jim:  May I say one more thing in that? When we were doing the cruise, it was a 29-day cruise, as a matter of fact. I timed that correctly. One port I did get an email at that port call that my dog was not allowed, and if I stepped on the ground with my service dog, they will take my dog away [inaudible 00:47:54]. Well, this place is American Samoa. It is part of America. So anyway, they have to comply with the right. The cruise line with no help at all. They just did whatever the government. Also when I travel to Hawaii, if you don't go in Honolulu first and you're on a cruise ship and you hit another port, there is a veterinarian that is contract by the agriculture. And they will contact you, and they will charge you there, around $400. I cannot see paying $400 to have my dog off the ship for a five-hour stay. 

So what I did is I called Honolulu, explained it to them, sent them all the documentation, and the day before I got the Maui, because the second part would be Honolulu, they notified the ship that Mr. Hogan and his dog is allowed to depart the ship in Maui, provided when you come in Honolulu he has the same document with him. So there are ways you can get around but paying those kind of money when it when the federal government don't charge you anything.

Cheri:  Thank you so much, Jim.

Rabih:  Let me just add to what Jim said.

Cheri:  Please.

Rabih:  We're not talking about international travel in except, obviously, the States and Canada, and that's very similar in terms of regulations. But the further out you go, the more complicated things get, as we just heard from Jim. I mean things like in Hong Kong, that you need a signature from the captain that says your dog didn't come in contact with any other animal on route. So it gets really picky, and the best thing you need for you to do and for your peace of mind is to do your research with the country you're going to to make sure everything is lined up, your documents aren't just signed and done in time, as Jim just said, but sometimes even translated in time as well. And that's a whole other discussion about international travel with dogs. Just keep that in mind. That gets much more complicated because of language barriers and islands and those kind of things.

Cheri:  Yeah. This is great.

Deb:  We don't have any more questions or comments right at the moment, so.

Cheri:  Oh well, that's okay. So I'm going to ask questions then, because I didn't get to ask two questions I wanted to ask. I mean I could barely get this out, Pete, because I kept thinking about running the whole time with this question. And just I was just like it's terrible. So what if I want to -- I never would -- but what if I want to -- what if somebody wants to participate in a 5K with their guide dog in your town this summer? Can they do that?

Pete:  Yes. Typically these races are covered by the ADA. They're either done by nonprofit, for profit businesses that are covered by the ADA, or they're done by state or local governments. And again, the general non-discrimination requirements of the ADA would apply. You and your guide can only be denied where there is a direct threat or there's a fundamental alteration of the program or service that's being provided. 

So participating in a marathon whether it's 10K, 5K or it's a full marathon, as long as you, the runner, the person that's going to participate is qualified, meets the eligibility requirements for participating, whatever, the age, whatever it may be, you should be allowed to participate with your guide dog. 

Again, this is in other areas, as you've heard poeple talk about over and over again, is doing your research. We know, as blind individuals in general, it oftentimes takes a lot of preparation before we head out the door and making sure that that we know where we're going, how we're going to get there, what's going to happen when we get there. 

And the same is true when you travel with the guide. You need to be educated. You really need to do your research. And there are, as we talked about, the resource document that's going to be made available. There are there are organizations out there that can assist you with getting information and answering your questions. But it's always -- the onus is on us as guide dog users to be fully educated and knowledgeable about the environment that we want to go visit or participate or be entertained or whatever the case may be. Educate, educate, educate yourselves.

Cheri:  I mean -- oh, go ahead, Claire.

Claire:  Oh sorry. I was just going to say I think Pete also brought up a really important part that you have to meet all of the eligibility requirements, et cetera, under the ADA. I think sometimes people hear the ADA and think oh, because the ADA covers me, I can do whatever I want because I have a disability. So, for instance, if I was to walk into the New York marathon and say, "I get to run it because I have a guide dog," they would laugh in my face because Claire Stanley is never going to run a marathon. I will not be eligible. So it's just important to remember too. I think that's such an important thing to always remember. My guide dog would run the marathon before I ever did.

Deb:  I was going say, is it that the dog has the right to bring you where you want?

[Laughter]
	
Rabih:  Touché. As a concept, just in principle though, I think, Cheri, what you're saying is you don't want to run or as Claire just said. But let's take the running out of it for a second and think of a fundraising walk for cancer. Would you do that with your guide dog?  

Cheri:  I would. Yes.

Rabih:  Okay. Well, there you go. It the same. It's just one moving faster than other. That's all it is.

Lui:  And farther.

Rabih:  And farther. That's fine. But it's basically a public event on the streets with other people around you. It's the right is really the same. 

And one other thing I just want to add here. One of the best services that GDB offers the grads is the network, like what we're doing tonight. That's really unique in the world of guide dog users, as you all know. So, no matter what event you want to go to, whether it's nearby or far away, I bet you somebody among our grads has done it or knows of somebody who's done it or done something like it and can give you some starting point, to go back to what Pete said, to do your research. Ask around. Has this been done and, if so, how? And if not, you know somebody who tried it and didn't succeed or just get going with the conversation, gather information. That's a great, great network, great community to tap into.

Cheri:  It's a wonderful community. And it's just about prepare yourself, right? I think everything we've been talking about is just educating yourself, prepare yourself. And I think this has been just a phenomenal hour that we've spent together with a lot of information, and I don't want to ask any more questions. I just want to --

Deb:  - There's a few people who'd like to interact, if you want to try to squeeze in a couple more.

Cheri:  Okay, well speed. What was that gameshow, like speed question?

Deb:  Sue.

Rabih:  One at a time now, guys.

Deb:  Can you un-, -- there you go.

Sue:  Okay. Sorry about that. [Crosstalk 00:56:26 ] Two comments. One, Pete was talking about the Red Caps and you getting ahead of on the train [Crosstalk 00:56:33]. On Union station, if you have the Red Caps' phone number, they'll actually come outside. If you call them and tell them what entrance you're at, they'll come and get you and bring you into the station. The other thing is --

Rabih:  Union station where, Sue? What city?

Sue:  Chicago.

Rabih:  Okay, thank you.

Sue:  Chicago. They will. I've done that before. The first couple of times I went there, I had their phone number, called them, and they came out and brought me in.

Claire:  Union station in Washington DC, I don't think it's the phone number, necessarily, but you can call ahead and set it up with the Red Caps at Union Station in Washington DC. So I'd be willing to bet that's most of the major hubs if you set it up ahead of time. Sorry to interrupt you.

Sue:  Oh, that's okay. Trying to be quick here, I used to go camping a lot with a group of friends. And one time we went, and there were two loose dogs, and they were really obnoxious, bugging my guide dog and me. And the owner was around one time, and I got upset with him, and I told him keep his dogs on leashes. There are lease rules and blah blah blah blah blah. And he informed me that it was a private campground. There were no leash rules, and he didn't have to. And come to find out that ended up being the owner of the campground. So be careful where you go. Don't just assume that it's public. And so I would probably never go back to a private campground again or at least not that one.

Cheri:  Yeah.

Deb:  And let's see, Chris.

Chris:  Hi everybody. Thanks for this great session. Can you hear me okay?

Kelly:  Yes. Hi, Chris.

Chris:  Hey, I don't know if this is a quick question, but any tips or tricks for using airport relief areas?

Deb:  Oh.

Chris:  Sorry. That's --

Cheri:  That's a big question at the end of this, Chris.

Chris:  Could possibly GDB put together something about airports? I don't know. Do they have something already?
 Rabih:  Say that again, Chris?

Chris:  Does GDB maybe have a resource that we could use for when accessing airports? I'm traveling quite a bit this summer, and I did it first time back in in April. Now I'm taking three different trips, going across the country and back, so I didn't know if you guys had anything.

Rabih:  That is a big question. We can talk about that for an hour. 

Chris:  Okay. 

Rabih:  The best you could do is to reach out to your community instructor, and they can at least work with you on some of the resources that we have here already. But it depends on where you're going. And there are complaints about certain airports better than others and indoors versus outdoors, and that is --

Chris:  - Yeah. Sorry.

[Crosstalk 00:59:26]

Deb:  -- google the locations of. Because every time I have done this, I have googled airport animal relief area, and I get the locations, which terminals they're in, and usually a description.

Chris:  Okay. Yeah. I'll check that out.

Kelly:  This is Kelly. Can you hear me?

Chris:  Yeah.

Rabih:  Yes.

Kelly:  I've just had a great experience, I've got to say. And I was on Southwest airlines, for example, but I called the airline and let them know I wanted curb-to-curb support. And I think most airlines have that. And basically they met me wherever, whichever -- I went to a ticket counter outside because that was easy for me. And they took me all the way, once I checked in, they took me all the way to the gate and made sure I got on the plane. And when I got to my destination, they were there waiting for me and took me all the way to baggage claim and out to get into a Lyft ride. So I would only suggest that you also might call the airline and ask for curb-to-curb support.

Chris:  Yeah, I've definitely done that. I appreciate that, Kelly. My first experience getting off in Dallas, the guy I heard him come up to us, and he goes, "Oh, I don't do dogs," and he had his associate have get him. But I appreciate that, and I'll go back on mute, and I'll let you guys finish up, So thank you guys.

Kelly:  Good luck in your travels. 

Chris:  Thank you.

Deb:  All right.

Rabih:  Just for Chris's sake, because I know it can be really uncomfortable if you come across a situation where you need to relief your dog and can't or, God forbid, go into a place where the dog refuses to be to go in because it's dirty, maybe the best thing to do, Chris, if you're traveling a lot is reach out to this community and let them know what airports you're going through and get some feedback from them on the availability of these relief areas and the usability.

Cheri:  Right because that's a great point, Rabih, because the certain airports that I'll fly through with Martinez, they do have access points where I can take him before I go into the airport to relieve him. A lot of them have outside areas before you go into baggage. And so a great resource, just like we've been saying, is reach out to the community.

Rabih: So everybody can call Chris from now on because he's going to become an expert.

Cheri:  Yes. Exactly. I'm going to hunt down Chris and be like, "Chris, where are you going? I want your phone. Hand me your cell phone."

Pete:  There's the GDB chapter, what is it? Paws Around?

Deb:  Paws Around the World. Paws Around the Airport.

Cheri:  Oh, that's a good one. I like that.

Rabih:  Paws Around the Potties.

[Laughter]

Cheri:  That's awesome.

Claire:  I have to say, though, you do see a lot more relieving areas these days than you used to. And I joke it's the one pro out of everybody bringing their pets on flights with them. [Crosstalk 01:02:39]. The pro is that I see them a lot more places, so it is getting better in that respect.

Rabih:  Yes.

Cheri:  Well, I think this was a great afternoon, and I want to thank all of you. I think you all did such a great job with these questions, and I think this was super informative, and I hope that it helped everybody.

Kelly:  Thank you so much for hosting this with everybody. You did an amazing job, Cheri. And I want to thank again the panel. Just like Cheri did, you guys did a wonderful job. It was very informative, and I hope that everybody who is part of this call, who joined the call, who spoke up in the call will have a wonderful summer of fun and travel and experience. And thank you all for being part of this and for advocating each and every day. Thank you.

Rabih:  Thanks. Thank you. Great job.

Lui:  Thanks everyone.

Deb: Thank you, guys. Thank you.

[End of Recording]